Dayton Stories Project
Tape Log Session #101995
Former Mayor James H. McGee
Dayton, Ohio
October 19, 1995
James H. McGee
Interviewer: Tony Dallas Transcriber: Lindsay Kuziensky Transcribe Typist: Sue Broadstock
Participants: James H. McGee
This session lasts approximately 52 minutes.
Due to its length the interview has been split into two parts.
PART ONE
PART TWO
The following transcription of the session has been edited, with repeated phrases or interruptions deleted to make the text flow more smoothly. It is suggested that visitors who find the text interesting take the time to listen to the audio portion of this session. A more detailed text will eventually be added.
Tony Dallas
Where were you born?
Mayor McGee
I was born in Berryberg, West Virginia and I was there in West Virginia, I came from several places in West Virginia and I came to Steubenville, I think it was, in 1925.
Tony Dallas
Can I ask when you were born?
Mayor McGee
November 8, 1918. I’m getting to be an old man. See, most of the people you’re interviewing are young people.
Tony Dallas
No, no. I’m interviewing a number of older people.
Mayor McGee
Yes, So, then I came to Steubenville. Then I stayed at Steubenville until I was eighteen then when I was eighteen I went to school at Wilberforce and I was there for about four years. I graduated from Wilberforce and then I went in the Army. When I went in the Army I was working out at Wright Patterson Air Force Base and then I came back to Dayton and got my job back which wasn’t anything substantial or I was going to stay there very long. Then I went to law school at Ohio State. Then after I finished law school I came back here and I’ve been there ever since.
Tony Dallas
So I can pack up and leave now that I’ve got your story. So, most of your growing up was in Steubenville, as a child.
Mayor McGee
I graduated from Steubenville High School.
Tony Dallas
What did you Dad do?
Mayor McGee
My Dad did cleaning. He was a cleaner. You know, he did cleaning. Walls, windows, wallpaper, things like that. Stores, did windows cleaning. Window cleaning company he had.
Tony Dallas
Was this his own company?
Mayor McGee
Yes.
Tony Dallas
Now was your Mom employed also?
Mayor McGee
No. Yes, she was employed. She had seven children so I guess she was employed. She worked her heart out. As I look back on it and see all the things she did, it was a hard life.
Tony Dallas
Where in line are you in the seven? You’re the top?
Mayor McGee
Number one
Tony Dallas
You’re number one. What was it like growing up in Steubenville and what were some of the influences on you?
Mayor McGee
Well, as one as those children I’d work all my life. You know, when I was youngster going to school I was always working. My father had a cleaning business and I could work in that business. You know, I could wash walls, carry water, do things like that. And ever since I’ve been old enough I’ve known nothing but work. And we worked and we did those things and never hurt us I guess. I’ve been working all the way through school and all the way through life so far and never had any times that I wasn’t working.
Tony Dallas
So, as long as you can remember.
Mayor McGee
I’ve been working. I’ve been working ever since I can remember.
Tony Dallas
You went on to college.
Mayor McGee
Yes.
Tony Dallas
Was it an important thing for your parents, your going to college?
Mayor McGee
Well, my mother more so than my father but, yes, she wanted me to go to school so I went over here to Wilberforce. We always talked about Howard. You know Howard. My mother thought about it. But, I couldn’t get in Howard. I didn’t get in Howard. I got in Wilberforce over there and then I graduated from there.
Tony Dallas
What was your degree in at Wilberforce.
Mayor McGee
Administration. Bachelor of Arts. Bachelor of Science in Education.
Tony Dallas
Did you know you wanted to become a lawyer?
Mayor McGee
Well, I always thought about it. I’d tell I was going to be. But when I got in law school, man, they really give you hell. That’s so tough. I remember when I went up to Ohio State, this old guy who was a professor, was talking about it. Says, “Young men. Look at somebody on your right. Somebody on your left. One of you not going to be here.” There was about twelve black people in my class and it was two of us graduated. One graduated, in fact, one graduated in December. And the other one of us, let’s see, I graduated in December, and the other one graduated in June.
Tony Dallas
What did it mean to you, being black and becoming a lawyer?
Mayor McGee
I don’t know. It didn’t mean much to me when I first got into it. It just was another job. I nearly starved to death when I was a lawyer. You know, lawyers didn’t make any money back in this time and I remember coming here and opening up an office. Hell, I didn’t make as much money as I could have made going back to work where I was working out in the field. But I just stayed there and I worked there three and four years and I said, “Hell, I think I’m going to get me a job someplace and get out of this business.” That year I made $13,000 and after that never had any more problems. But, it was just a tough life.
Tony Dallas
So, you started lawyering what, in the?
Mayor McGee
‘49.
Tony Dallas
‘49. Late forties. And you settled in Dayton because you had basically come from Wright Patt?
Mayor McGee
Yes, I had a job at Wright Patterson. You know when the war started, that day the war started, I was living over in Xenia, working out in the field. The day after the war started I got a job. No, the day after the ware started, I got a job working out to the field. Yes. I got a job working out in the field and I was living over in Xenia. And then I worked there until I went to law school. Then, when I went to law school, I quit my job and started living in Columbus then. I live in Columbus for about three years. Three years and then I went to, after I left Columbus, I came back here because this is where I was working in field. I got my job back and I didn’t work there very long. No, I didn’t get my job back when I graduated. When I graduated from law school I went into the army. No, before I graduated from law school, I went into the army. And after I finished the army, I came back here and made applications working out in the field. You know, I worked there for about three or four months. Maybe six months. Then I went to school. I went three years and then when I got out of there I went into practice and starved to death.
Tony Dallas
What was your practice? Were you by yourself?
Mayor McGee
No, I was with a guy named Simmons. He used to be aruond here. A guy named Morris Simmons and he and I were doing it and I worked in there with him. He didn’t like to work so much so, the first five years were pretty tough. But then, things went along just fine.
Tony Dallas
What sort of cases would you have?
Mayor McGee
I took a lot of civil rights cases.
Tony Dallas
Why?
Mayor McGee
I took a lot of the civil rights cases. I was about the only one with fire in the civil rights. I was fooling around with the NAACP.
Tony Dallas
Tell me about that time. Because your getting the time when the theaters.
Mayor McGee
The theaters were kind of prejudiced. They were bias places. You could go in I guess, but, they had certain sections for you to sit and things like that and the only place you could eat downtown was the five and ten cents store and it wasn’t much.
Tony Dallas
There was only sections of that.
Mayor McGee
Yes, that’s right. You couldn’t eat there. Well you was more likely to get service there or the bus station was about the only place you could eat. Bus station. I was working at the field and old Steele High School down there, the Air Force had offices in there and I worked in there for about a year or so and then I went out to the field for a year or so. Then I went to law school. Finished law school. Came back here and was in practice with this guy, Simmons. He and I worked there together and we both started it. He, finally, he up and left won and he went out to California and I was in practice here. This is his brother in-law, Carter, back here in the back with me.
Tony Dallas
I’ve met Mr. Carter.
Mayor McGee
Well, he was his brother in-law. Simmons was a pretty good, he was a nice fellow. He didn’t liked o work, but, he was a nice fellow. He left here and went to California. I’ve been out there. I saw him out there a couple times and then he died. He had cancer of this throat, I think it was, and he passed away. His son was here. His son is Carter’s brother-in-law. No, wait a minute. Yes. Carter’s sister was married to Simmons and Simmons, he was also a lawyer and he and I worked together. But Carter’s father was a lawyer here too. He was one of the first lawyers here.
Tony Dallas
Did the NAACP approach you?
Mayor McGee
Well, no. When I first went into practice down there with old Simmons, he was up over what used to be Harris’s bar down there. Harris’s bar. He was upstairs. There was an insurance company up there and Simmons had offices in there , it was like rooms, so I got rooms in there too and the NAACP was in there. Then Simmons, after we was there for a year or tow, Simmons went to California and then they pulled out and left it. Left me and the NAACP together. We practiced together for awhile. Then they came up on Fifth Street. First, I came up, I think the next place I moved was up on the corner of Third and Summit down there in Francis’ building and I was in there for awhile. Then, I bought this building and I was in here and I’ve been here ever since.
Tony Dallas
What was your first case with the NAACP?
Mayor McGee
I don’t know what the first one was. I was fooling around with all of them. I was president of the NAACP one time and I worked with them and we used to file cases. We didn’t make any money. They make some money now with that banquet they put on. But we never made any money. We never had any money. I was at the NAACP. The first cases we had, you know there’s a bowling alley. What’s that guy’s name? Suvakis? Suvakis had a bowling alley. We had one of the first cases was a bowling alley case. Then we used to have some restaurant cases. They wouldn’t serve you. Had a case down in, oh, where is Oxford? Oxford. In oxford. They wouldn’t let blacks in a swimming pool down and we filed a case down there. And we filed cases around here. And then just went on around. I became the president of the NAACP. Leo Regis came into the NAACP. Just worked with the NAACP. I worked with the Urban League. I worked with the Urban League and then they got the, you know, Crawford. Crawford was the, in the modern era, he was the first black person into, working for City Commission. He was a City Commissioner. So, when he got working to at the City Commission he had a job with the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts, he couldn’t work as much as he wanted to with the city and the Boy Scouts so he took the job as Assistant City Commissioner. Dave Hall got him in there and he worked in there. Then, he decided he had to either, I think t was, he had to quit the Boy Scouts, no. So, he started working, he got the job with the City Commission as Assistant to the City Commission and then when he got that job, he recommended that I be appointed to his job as Commissioner. He was a
Tony Dallas
So, when is this?
Mayor McGee
This is nineteen, I came her in 1970. About 1967, I think. Somewhere in that area. I was almost one term as a Commissioner and I think I was re0elected and then Dave Hall was the mayor and he got sick and he had to resign. Of course, he’s wanting me to be appointed as the Mayor, but, finally, eventually, I was the oldest one, it seemed on the Commission before he retired. When he retired from the Commission I became, well, no, about a year later, after they fought for a year who was going to get it, I became the Mayor. Then, from then on, then after I became the Mayor, I was re-elected and then re-elected again. I was mayor for about eleven years, eleven and a half years. And then after that was over, I came back out here and been here ever since.
Tony Dallas
Must have been quite a big thing when you first became mayor, I imagine.
Mayor McGee
They didn’t want me to become mayor and those guys on the Commission, they didn’t want to back me. They kept fighting back among themselves. So, there was a question whether or not they was going to appoint a black or whether or not they were going to appoint a Union man. The people were so unionized. See Tom Bangers was on the Commission. He wanted to be it. He couldn’t get it and they went around and they jived around. They thought they were jiving me. They weren’t jiving me. See, Liscanny made it like he, he was backing me a hundred percent, but Liscanny was trying to be mayor. Tom Andrews made out like he didn’t want Liscanny to be and so he was trying to get it. So finally I said, “To hell with it. I don’t care who gets it. You guys do what you’re going to do.” So then Tom Andrews came over. He’d rather have a black guy than to have a labor union head it. He was a Republican. You know how they were with labor. So he voted for me and I became the mayor And after that, the elections I told you about.
Tony Dallas
What were some of the specific cases that you took on with the NAACP and was it, you were still fairly new in Dayton.
Mayor McGee
Russell Carter and I handled a couple of NAACP cases that were down in, the Hillsboro case was one of the cases. It was kind of a thing where they didn’t want black kids. They had a little area in this town. They had the little school, Lincoln School, I think it was, I can’t remember the name of the school.
Tony Dallas
Hillsboro, Ohio?
Mayor McGee
Yes, And they didn’t have any blacks there. They made the black students go to ths school. So, we filed a case with the aid of the NAACP. Connie Motley. You remember Connie Motley, I think she’s a district court judge in New York, and she was in it. And we worked that case out and we fought it and this old guy down there who didn’t want us to win, but, we won that case. And after having won that case, they did away with the school down there in Hillsboro. We had a swimming pool case. Think it was a swimming pool case over in, what’s the school down here?
Tony Dallas
Steele? Roosevelt?
Mayor McGee
No, not in Dayton. The school in Oxford.
Tony Dallas
Miami.
Mayor McGee
Miami. I think we had a case down there about a swimming pool And the church. I think we had a church one.
Tony Dallas
Now, these cases basically get decided by judges. I was wondering, I remember in what ‘60...
Mayor McGee
Where you from?
Tony Dallas
I’m from Yellow Springs.
Mayor McGee
Yellow Springs over here? Well, we’ve been over to Yellow Springs but they didn’t have any problems.
Tony Dallas
There was a barber shop.
Mayor McGee
I was getting ready to say, we had a barber shop case. We were on that case and we finally fought that and we won that one. That’s the only one we had around there.
Tony Dallas
Right. But that was a jury case and do you remember fined them.
Mayor McGee
You want to know what they fined them? What’d they fine them?
Tony Dallas
One dollar.
Mayor McGee
Well, that wasn’t anything.
Tony Dallas
But I was wondering in terms of, you’re really sort of up against the establishment.
Mayor McGee
You’re always. Back in that time, they didn’t want to file anything. They didn’t want you to win the case and yet, they knew it was the right thing to do and you never got any kind or judgments or anything. If you got a judgment, it was just winning a case was something and the NAACP didn’t have any money to pay you so we did most of those cases free. We might have got, one or two of them, we got a few dollars from the national office. I never made any money on the NAACP. We worked there with them. But, we’d always file cases for them or threaten filing cases and that’s one reason they didn’t want me to be on the Commission because of the civil rights cases. That was a bad thing. City Hall, there was nobody black down there working before Crawford came on. Everybody was below the first floor because there were some people who were meter readers. City meter readers. They were down there. That was about all that they had. Then, let’s see, they had some meter readers, then, before that, Cooper got a job up there as a draftsman or something and he and Crawford were the only two down there. Then when Crawford took over the job as clerk, I was the only one down there and then we worked together with C.J. McLin and I tell you, they were raising hell because they didn’t have any people working there and I always backed them, so, they didn’t want to fight with me. So, they just go on. They started hiring policemen and they hired policemen. Then they started opening up jobs.
Tony Dallas
Because the were afraid of having?
Mayor McGee
They didn’t want any argument, well, I guess, with me. You know, the City Manager, he was always kinder with me if he wanted something down, you know, he would probably just keep quiet. There would be no argument about it. We’d just go ahead and do them. We would have done them anyway because we had a majority on the Commission. See, there’s Pat Roach and myself and then we could always get another person. We could get things done. Then I got three. See, there was me, Pat Roach and Dixon. Dixon got on the Commission. There were three of us. We had three and so we could do about anything that we had that was right we wanted to do.
Tony Dallas
Mayor Dixon?
Mayor McGee
Yes, Mayor Dixon was a Commissioner. He was a Commissioner and then he got elected mayor after I went off. When I went off, he came on. That’s kind of the history there. Then Kunde was a good City Manager. He was in favor. Alway was all right City Commissioner. He got a lot of these programs through. Let’s see, who else was in there. Trying to think who was before. Oh, this guy, I know what his name was. His wife was Queenie. What was his name. He was a City Commissioner. And then there was Kunde. Then there was Alway. Then there was the guy that went over to Indiana. They just fire him. He was a good manager too because he’s young and he grew up on that position. He was a good manager and he got things done. One of the problems we had, we didn’t have much problems, we had some good liberal managers who were trying to do the right thing. And they had the handicaps like we had then. I think they got some trouble down there now. This guy who’s City Manager, he don’t understand the fact, where he can’t count to three, that the Commission runs things. In the olden days, the Manager was always telling everybody what do to and we decided what to do. He could do everything he wanted to. Hiring and firing people and all that. But the general policy matters, we helped them out on policy. Seeing that the right thing and the right policies were established. And then they had these groups that work their problems, starting with Dave Hall. Dave Hall didn’t want work itself so he gave the groups that come from the neighborhood. Every district has their own neighborhood. We get a lot of things done that the citizens want done.
Tony Dallas
When you were working as a lawyer in the fifties, were you ever afraid for you life?
Mayor McGee
No. I didn’t get enough vacations for to be afraid with my life. They weren’t going full. And you know, Price was Chief of Police. He was all right. He was kind of rough on the police. He kept them under. They didn’t do all the stuff that they do now. When Price was chief he would fire you. Things evolved pretty well then they start these highways coming through town. See, these highways coming through town did more to segregate this City than anything else and did more to let the people move out. I wasn’t on the Commission then, but they did a lot to do it themselves. Se, back in those time, a new city was starting to cost money and you had to post taxes. You had to build roads. Infrastructure and all that so, the Commission then said no, they didn’t want anything to do with it down here. Kettering, Oakwood. What was the township. Van Buren township was what Oakwood. When they started to get to be a city, they wanted to join as an annex to Dayton and the Commission wouldn’t agree to it because of the cost to be involved with it and so they made their own city, Kettering. And that started the deterioration of Dayton.
Tony Dallas
Because people left Dayton.
Mayor McGee
Well, you see, the people who left Dayton lived out there. But then, you see, there’s plenty of raw land out there. So when they started to build these roads, it gave the folks that were living in Dayton, when they built state highways and all that, they could sell there property for the highway and then they started building down and started building in Kettering. Then for awhile they kept on and they tried to join Dayton and Dayton refused them and then they went on and started their own city.
Tony Dallas
I heard about, especially in the sixties, the police coming into West Dayton and being rather liberal about breaking into people houses.
Mayor McGee
Well, I don’t recall that much but they would stid you round pretty good. There was payoffs then that we’ve never had before. You know, the guys operated with the acquiescence of the police department in some instances and of course they’ll deny that. But I used to represent a guy down there who was kind of a crook. He was running illegal businesses and they used to give gifts to policemen. I knew that. But then it was never as open. I’d actually jump on the chief about that. Go talk to him about that. He’d say, “Well, we knew they were there and we just put them in one section of town so we can keep our eye on them and they can’t go in other parts and this is the way we keep an eye on them.” We’d say, “What the hell. I suppose if they can’t come over in this section and do that, you can’t go do it in the other section.” We had pretty clean government. Course there were certain cops that were getting some payoffs. I know that. But it wasn’t open. We didn’t have any of that stuff because the police departments covered everything and it was pretty clean. This was a clean day.
Tony Dallas
Back in the fifties?
Mayor McGee
Fifties and sixties. Yes.
Tony Dallas
But what about racially?
Mayor McGee
Well, you see this was a biased town. Blacks lived over only in this section of town and you know, they tried to use the segregation but then once the NAACP started working and once some people got on the Commission and they stopped it, it was a pretty good city. Of course it had some things in here that shouldn’t be, I guess every city has something. But, they didn’t have any shenanigans about the criminals running town or something like that. They might have operated around here just like down on Jefferson Street. Remember the Pony Keg? They gambled in there all the time. But that was clubbing. They kept everything pretty well in line here. This was a clean city and it never had a lot of problems as many other cities had. The only thing they did have is racial segregation and gradually we worked past that. They had the schools segregated here. Remember Roosevelt up here. Then they built Roth so that when they started really integrating this they still started segregation by opening that school up there. And so they started that school and pretty soon blacks were all out here and they couldn’t get away with that. I remember when the NAACP filed a suit against the school board.
Tony Dallas
‘71?
Mayor McGee
Somewhere around there. The school board didn’t have any blacks and then Lillian Brodess got on there. They had two swimming pools. When they built Roosevelt they built a swimming pool for girls and allegedly a swimming pool for boys. But when they changed it, they made it the swimming pool for blacks and the swimming pool for whites. We opposed that and we filed against them. What was that guy’s name? He was a Jewish lawyer herein Town. He was school board president. But he couldn’t do to much. They were building this Jewish recreation center out here. They said, “We’ll build one bigger than they’re building.” They had one of the first big swimming pools out there. What was that guy’s name? Memory sort of slips you when you get this age and you don’t remember as well as you did. Shamen. His name of Shamen. He was in the gas and electric building when it was there and he had a big law firm up there. He was head of the school board and he didn’t want to be anxious and come out about it was wrong to have two swimming pools but I don’t think he did anything to try to stop it when they started raising Cain about him doing it. Then they built that Jewish swimming pool out there near their golf course. They’re pretty well integrated I think now.
Tony Dallas
Who’s the Jewish guy who had a business in West Dayton who was the only place wehre blacks could get loaned money?
Mayor McGee
That was right down here. The store ws burned down and it opened back up and another guy was running it but this was after the death of, what was his name? He was the black banker over here, so a lot of people got houses. He charged exorbitant interest then, but he had plenty of money.
Tony Dallas
How was he looked at in the black community?
Mayor McGee
Nobody said anything to him because the black people he was with, he was their banker. He’d give them money. Like Miss Francis down here, she had loans through him. She started owning him money. Same as the others that buy houses and many blacks over here got houses in this section because he put the money up. He knew they had money and knew they paid their bills. He was farther ahead of most of you white folks. Blacks paid their bills and he opened up much of that. What is that guy’s name? I Never knew him at first. He had all this money but he was the black banker over here. See, he didn’t run a bank but he brought up a loan company and then they started using that. See, he had a lot of money and he got a lot of black trade coming in there and he had just like set up a bank. If you wanted to borrow money from him, I think it was ten percent or something like that, he was getting this money and he would let you have the money. And they come in his store and buy and he started building. He built a bigger store and he got that big, new store. It had two floors and he had a lady work for him, I think it was his girlfriend, and they had just a regular banking institution. You couldn’t any loans to borrow money. He would let people have money and he’d let you have money if you wanted to buy a house or something, if it was in the right neighborhood. He didn’t go out breaking neighborhoods, at first. He was a ready access of money because you have all these people, they pay you. They paid him. They worked at these foundries and places around here. You could go to him and get a loan. They’d go to him and they’d go every week. Then they go get they’re check cashed there. They get the money there. Could buy stuff on credit there. But the house. So, that’s where they got they’re money.
Tony Dallas
Wasn’t his place one of the places that was burned down when they had they riots?
Mayor McGee
No. He was dead then and after he dies, one of his in-laws took it over and then after they took it over, they had this fire. But, I don’t think it was anything like that. Might of been for a fire sale, but it wasn’t anything because he was very strong in the neighborhood. He had more friends, I guess, then most black people, other than some of these preachers. They paid him and they could borrow the money from him. He was their banker.
Tony Dallas
Did you ever have cases against the banks in town?
Mayor McGee
Banks, no. We never had any banks. I did have trouble when I bought this building here. I paid all the money. I had the money to pay for it but I paid so much money for it, and then I had some money down in the bank on the corner there. It was a bank on the corner of Third and Main. On the northwest corner. What was the name of that bank? There was building and loan there. I had a bank in there and so, one time I was going to a meeting of the NAACP and I told my wife to come down here. This was a feed store and I told her to bid on this building. So, I went up there and she bid more than I thought she was going to bid on the building. I called her up and she said, “Well, we own the building.” I went down the bank to get the money and the guy come over to me, “Well, we can’t.” I think it was twelve thousand dollars I wanted to borrow. I think I paid twenty some thousand for it and I paid eight or ten thousand of my own money, but I wanted to borrow ten or twelve thousand dollars from them. So the guy come back and told me, We can’t let you have that much money.” And so I said, “You can’t? I’ll tell you what I’ll do. I’ll take my money out of here.” And he said, “Well, I didn’t mean that you couldn’t borrow some money, but you can’t borrow eight thousand dollars.”
Tony Dallas
Did you put that ten thousand dollars on a place,
Mayor McGee
I paid cash for it. But, I bought it at an auction sale. I had to figure out how I was going to pay. I could’ve paid for it. I had the money to pay for it. There was no problem about that. But, I said, “Well, I’m not breaking myself up.” So, I just did that and I went and borrowed the money. Rubenstein was that guy’s name. I went and borrowed the money.
Tony Dallas
So you got it from Rubenstein?
Mayor McGee
No, not from him. I went to the bank and I had the money in the bank and so this guy told me I couldn’t borrow that much money. And I said, “Well, I tell you what I can do. I can take my money out of her.” And when I told him that, he said, “Well, I didn’t say you couldn’t borrow some money. You can’t borrow that much.” And said, “Well, I just borrow it from here.” And I paid in a couple years, I think.
Tony Dallas
That’s amazing. When you have the money. You have the collateral.
Mayor McGee
But you borrow the money so you still have some money. You’re not broke. I remember Bobby Ford. You remember Ford up here? On Third Street? He was a doctor and he built that building there. He had a pretty good down payment on it, but he went down to the First National Bank and that was a white bank then and he went in there and he wanted to borrow some money and they turned him down. They turned you down. They said, “Well, you know, you’re not in business and you don’t need it for payroll and things like that. Well, we can’t let you have the money.” That’s just the line. So, the guy came back and told me. I had some money in that bank. Well, that’s been my primary bank ever since I’ve been in business. So, I went down there and this guy, he wanted to borrow forth thousand dollars, I think it was, and the guy told him down there that they couldn’t make a loan to him for forty thousand dollars. He was a dentist and dentists were making money. So, I called this guy up down there and I didn’t talk to the president. I talked to Ames. Ames was the guy down there. I said, “How come this guy can’t get a loan down there to buy this building that he’s paying down?” He said, “Well, you know, we just have money to loan out to businesses to help them pay the payroll and everything like that.” And I said, “Well what do I tell this man? I got this much money in here. How come they can’t get a loan on it?” And he said, “Well, send him back down here to see me.” So, he went back down there and he got a loan and he paid it off, I think, in two or three years. And then there used to be an old guy down there was in his bank on the corner. McGrew. He said he wouldn’t lend any money to black folks to bust the neighborhood. Then there were headlines in the paper. The paper put some pressure on it and we got that thing straightened out. But, there’s been some problems. There wasn’t ever very much money in the neighborhood. But then, as I said, Rubenstein was the banker over here. He lent more money to people.
Tony Dallas
Rubenstein was at least, people had some respect for Rubenstein.
Mayor McGee
No, they didn’t respect him because the high interest rate was shylock. But, the stood by the people that could borrow money because they couldn’t anyplace else and he would them money because he knew they would pay them back and they’d buy stuff in his store. He was a banker. I bet he knew more people than most black people did in town. He had more of a following than most people in town. It was because of that money.
Tony Dallas
So you tink that the highway coming through...
Mayor McGee
I not only think I know it did because you see, it tore out all the bad houses and took the people there that were in the houses and gave them enough money to go where the highway came through. Di you follow where the highway went down and across there and out going west. See, that money suppose to first come here at Third and Broadway down there and back that way. But, the people that got the money was the people in the white section because they started on the other side of town instead of starting over here.
Tony Dallas
Whey did they do that?
Mayor McGee
Because that’s what the people who had the money, that’s what they wanted to do. That’s why they did it. But they got the federal money to come in based on the way that they talked about how bad this neighborhood was and how bad it needed to be cleaned up. This is cleaned up. But they said, “You know we can’t get enough money to start over here t clean up. Let’s start over here and get this done and then we’ll borrow and come over here.” So that’s why everything fixed up that way.
Tony Dallas
So they got the money and said the highway is going to go over here.
Mayor McGee
Yes because, see, from Summit Street down here, back that way, it’s pretty bad down in there and that’s what needs cleaning up. Now they want to clean it up and they got the money to clean it up but they started over by the market, the old hay market, and up that way.
Tony Dallas
I was wondering, I’ve had my first experience with a lawyer and it was not a very pleasant one. It was a land dispute with my neighbor, but I guess what I was wondering was, when you decided to become a lawyer, what is your notion about being a lawyer and what did that mean to you?
Mayor McGee
When I became a lawyer, it was a way to make a living. I started out to make a living and then I just learned it. I didn’t anything about being a lawyer. Never had any experience or anything. Nobody in my family had ever been a lawyer. So, it was a way to make some money. I started making some money. Didn’t make a whole lot. The first five years I practiced law, I don’t think I made two thousand dollars. If it hadn’t been for the fact that my wife was working, then we got by. Then I made that thirteen and never turned back. But, what was wrong with that, I never started out in the most lucrative practice of law. The most lucrative practice of law, if I would have had enough brains or had some guidance to go into it, was to get in these suits. Personal injury. That’s where the money was. If I would have come up with that practice like the others, I’d have been rich like my friend Toller who came out of school with me up in Columbus. But I didn’t. I came up with Civil Rights Act where you made enemies instead of friends.
Tony Dallas
You must have had some sense of a mission.
Mayor McGee
Well, I always knew what’s right and what’s wrong. I still have that mission and lawyers sometimes have disappointed me in the way they do things. See, the young lawyer, he thinks of it to make money. But you have to do something for the public or for the people. What’s right and what’s wrong Not to make a buck. You got to do what’s right and what’s wrong. I’d never take any cased that weren’t right. I took a lot of cases that I didn’t get any money for because somebody had to do it and it was the right thing to do. But, I never regretted it. There’s right things and wrong things. How do you make a buck off of some people who don’t have any money to give you? And you take it anyway. NO, I don’t need that. I’d go along with a case sometimes and I didn’t worry about getting paid. Sometimes I didn’t get paid.
Tony Dallas
Do people ever ask you to take on a case and you don’t feel it’s morally right?
Mayor McGee
Sometimes I don’t take those kind of cases.
